📍 Hi Jo, how are you? 

I'm so good. Nice to see you. 

Same here.

Nice to see you again. Thank you for joining us. 

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. 

Yep. Yep. I'm super excited to talk to you because you have such an interesting story. 

Thank you. Yeah. It's been quite the journey

quite the journey I'm going to dive, dive right in.  You were in your twenties you are in Hollywood. You're living the life of a model. Perhaps you're having fun. All of a sudden there is an arrest that follows up with an attempt to suicide.

Yeah, when I go back to that time period, there was a lot of fun and I think that life is always about the both end there was a lot of light. There was a lot of dark. There was a lot of fun. There was a lot of sickness. It was a little bit of all of those things. And on paper, my life looked 

awesome. Not to everybody, but if I could just paint you a picture, I'm living in Newport beach. I'm modeling full time. I'm getting paid stupid amount of money. My boyfriend is in the NFL. I'm partying at the playboy mansion, and so people go Oh, wow that's pretty incredible. But the reality of what I felt was I never hated myself more.

So even though I'm in magazines, I hate my body. And even though I live in this beautiful home in Newport beach, I feel just disgusting. You know what I mean? So it was this paradox of what I should be feeling. I'm not, and that almost made it worse. 

Why were you hating yourself? 

The addiction creates so much shame.

So it's like, why do you drink? Because I'm sad. Why are you sad? Because of what I did when I was drinking. So you've got all of this stuff that primes you for addiction, right? Like the mental health. The trauma, the whatever it is that actually is at the root of your addiction, but then the addiction itself causes you to become a person that you don't know anymore.

You don't recognize you can't relate to, you're afraid of, you're acting in ways that are so out of alignment of who and what you truly are that then all the shame is created. So then the addiction becomes the focus. You can't even get underneath it. to the roots. And so at that time, my drinking was so out of control.

It was all day. It was every day. It was just existing in this blackout. And when I think about alcohol use at that level, I really liked this analogy. So think about an essential oil, like a doTERRA oil or something. How do they make that? So they take a plant, a living organism, a human would be, and they soak it in ethanol, right?

AKA alcohol. And that extracts the essence out of that organism. And to me, that is exactly what was happening with my drinking. It was like the essence of me was just gone. And what was left was like the worst parts of myself. 

Were there other girls who were having a similar experience as you? 

Yeah, it's interesting because some of my work was legit, modeling and I was in FHM and I did a lot of clothing and bikini and spokesmodeling.

But when I got working more into the adult world and the adult industry, my experience was that everyone was, Sick. They were using a lot. They had a lot of trauma. There wasn't anybody that was just super healthy. The other thing that I noticed was everyone was just trying to get out. It was like, let me just make enough to then get out.

And so when I think about that industry and I can't identify a single person that loved it, wanted to stay in it, felt it was beneficial other than just the money and survival. And it's pretty dark. That's the reality of it. 

Was there any camaraderie amongst the girls who are together, have found themselves in a place where they are like, I don't want to be here anymore.

Let's get out together. Or did you still feel alone? 

I'll just speak for me. I felt really alone. I had very surface level friendships at that time. And I'm not even gonna, Put that on anyone else. It's I didn't even know who I was. I was in this state of disassociation. I was drinking all the time.

There was no self to connect with, like even if there was somebody who could really show up in any real meaningful way. Even my romantic relationships were a joke. I was just a hologram of myself. Yeah, there was no true connection and that's one of the things I talk about a lot when it comes to addiction is so often addiction is the absence of connection, to self, to spirit, to, to life.

And yeah, so no, there, there wasn't very surface level connection. very fake connections. 

No, you're blowing my mind right now because the way you're describing how life was for you. I know people personally and they have never been able to verbalize it as well as you. But when you see a hologram of yourself, I'll call taking the essence of life away from you.

I know there are so many who are listening to this who can resonate with that. So thank you for putting it in a way so that it's easy to digest. So you were there, you're struggling, you're unhappy, you don't have the camaraderie, you don't really know yourself, so let alone you cannot have deep relationships.

What was the trigger for you Make a decision that you want to end your life. 

I think it was more of death by a thousand cuts than like one big slice. It was just a accumulation of so much time spent in that low negative energy. I woke up one morning, I was supposed to be going to Iowa for this motorcycle shoot.

I woke up on my kitchen floor. I didn't know what day it was. I didn't know what time it was. I'm literally laying on my kitchen floor and I, and it just hit me. Like I had the experience before of, I don't want to be here anymore. And I sadly think that's more common than not, that people will have that feeling.

Even, you could be working a 90 hour work week and then the thought just pops into your head. It'd be so much easier if I weren't here anymore. If I just didn't have to do this, being human is cool, it's fucking hard, so I. I'd had the experience before of, I don't know if I want to be here, but it, that was the first time I ever felt like I'm going to do something about it.

And I, I mean it right. And it really terrified me. So I called my mom and I told her, I said I'm not okay. I'm not. I'm not doing well and I need to go to rehab. And so I did, and I went to one of those bougie treatment centers. It's like a hundred grand in Southern California. And, basically we did AA, which is supposed to be free.

So I'm not quite sure what I paid for, but what I will say is this, I'm very grateful for it because taking a 90 day timeout from life saved my life. Like I came out of there. I never did hard drugs again, which is I'm insanely grateful for, but I was only sober from alcohol about six months. And then I started using again.

And ironically, one of the main reasons I did, and I don't blame my relapse on this, but it is an important part of the story. I feel like if you're going to go out, you're going to go out no matter what. Until you're really healed, if you're white knuckling it, if you're just trying to do everything you can to not drink, you're going to fall off eventually.

It doesn't matter if it's a breakup or a divorce, you get fired, whatever it is, something's going to throw you because you have no base. You have no foundation. But there was a, Therapist at this treatment center who actually helped me uncover and recall being molested when I was little and I had no recollection of it until I was 23 in therapy sessions and it turned out the police had been involved, like all this shit that I didn't even remember.

So it was really powerful work. And what happened is that therapist then hit on me. So it really I felt like this overwhelming sense that the world was just so unsafe that even the person I trusted the most that did everything to help me that really made me for once feel safe and connected would do that.

And he sent me an email saying something along the lines of, I want to show you what a real man is, or it's just some nonsense like that. And it just. Yeah, my world shattered. I started drinking again. And then it was, a few years before I finally did have a suicide attempt. And then I did get better.

So that was a pretty pivotal turning point in my life. 

Especially to have your trust broken like that once you have connected with somebody at that level to be able to uncover something so deep from your past. So you relapse, you go back into drinking. What was that interim period after getting out of rehab, not doing hard drugs, but now dealing with a new monster and the second suicide attempt?

What was that interim period like? 

What's interesting and really unexplainable to me is I did go back to drinking, but it wasn't out of control. It wasn't healthy by any means, but it wasn't all day, every day, like it was before. So I think the problem with people like me is the bar is so low, for health or for normal behavior that while my drinking was certainly, unhealthy to me.

I was like this is actually pretty good. I'm doing pretty well. So I was able to just maintain, and I've always been a very high functioning alcoholic. My addiction started at age 12 and I played junior Olympic softball and volleyball. My volleyball team took second in nationals, We, we performed at a really high level.

I graduated high school when I was 16 with full ride scholarships. I, was in college just slaying it. Like I always was able. To appear to be okay. So that kind of kicked in again at this point. So I decided to go back to graduate school and of course, what am I going to do? I'm going to become a therapist and that's so common.

What we need to learn, we will teach and what we teach is what we need to learn. And so I went to graduate school. My addiction was pretty under control manageable, I will say. And then I had A really awful experience. I was dating a guy who played for the Yankees. I was in Tampa for spring training.

We got in a big fight. I met this other guy at a nightclub. I was trying to make my boyfriend at the time jealous. So anyway, I ended up going to dinner with this guy and I was raped. The thing that makes this story so powerful is it was the first time in my life I felt compassion for myself. And really probably one of the first and I just thought, Oh my God, this shouldn't have happened to me.

And I felt this overwhelming sadness and compassion and like desire to, to hold myself. And I knew that it wasn't my fault. And if anybody is listening and they've been assaulted and they haven't felt that yet, trust me. It's so true. That should never ever happen to you. But I share this story a lot at universities and I'll get young girls coming up all the time.

Like, how did you get there? I didn't know. I, I still blame myself. And it's really sad because with something like sexual assault, the energy of shame is created. If I violate you in any way especially like sexually, the energy is shame. The problem is the perpetrator won't pick it up, they're just like, oh, and they clean their hands of it.

So the victim not only has their own experience, but they also assume the shame that really belongs to somebody else. And so it's a really messy thing to start dissecting. For some reason, I had a moment of clarity that I didn't deserve that. And that was the catalyst for me to eventually. Get better and go to treatment, but it did, it got like most things very dark before it got light.

And that was where a suicide attempt happened. And I just remember it was the oddest thing when I made the decision that I was going to do it, everything lifted. Like I was happy. I remember I was just finally at peace. Like that one decision actually gave me the freedom and peace I'd been looking for so long.

And thank God a friend found me, got me to the hospital on time. That in and of itself is an unbelievable story, but I know there is a reason that I'm here and that's why I share so vulnerably and openly about what I went through is because I just truly want people to know. There is no depth of hell that I haven't been in.

And for me to be where I'm at now, anyone can do it. Anyone can do it. I'm not special. And I think that message is important and you can also be really happy. When I was thinking about getting sober, I didn't have a lot of people that were role models to me that were sober and happy. They were sober and maintaining.

They were sober and not using, but it's a band aid on a compound fracture. They weren't thriving. They weren't happy. They weren't in love with life. So I want people to hear that, that not only can you break free of this, but you can absolutely love your life. 

You may not think you're special, but the vulnerability, the truth that you're bringing to this conversation, the honesty that you're displaying you are literally changing lives and for someone to be able to put themselves out there.

Just for the sake of helping someone that they don't even know who the other end of the podcast it does make you special So I'm very grateful to have you here. I just wanted to tell you that So your friend finds you, you go to the hospital you get help When does that pivot in life occur? Does it happen right after is there a time period?

What is happening in your life that causes this pivot that eventually ends up making you who you are today? 

So after I was released from the hospital, I, it took a few months to let that experience marinate. I knew I had to get sober. I knew there was absolutely zero chance I was going to make it, that I wouldn't try it again.

Like I knew if I was using, that was always a risk. And that is one of the scariest things about addiction to me because me sober would have never harmed myself. That really was my addiction. I'm being so intoxicated all the time. And at that level, it's the saddest, scariest thing to think that I actually wanted to kill myself.

You just think about the primal nature of. of us to survive, how deeply encoded into our makeup. That is, it is absolutely terrifying. When you think somebody could be a not much pain. that much despair, that much hopelessness that they would actually hurt themselves. We will do anything to survive.

We're wired for it. So when that experience happened, I knew I needed to stop drinking, but I had no idea how. And my mom actually found this program. It was called shick Shadle and it was aversion therapy. And so I went to an aversion therapy program. It was 10 days and I never wanted to drink again. And that was over 12 years ago.

What is aversion therapy, for those who don't know? 

I went into this little tiny room. They injected me with something that causes flu like symptoms. Chills, vomiting, it's awful. And then, I would drink a water glass full of EpiCac. So if you have a kid and they eat something poisonous, you give them like a tablespoon and it will cause vomiting.

So I drank a water glass full of Epicac and then you're just slamming drinks, just 20 water glasses full of vodka, wine, Just anything, the worst jungle juice you could possibly imagine. And you're just sitting there over this sink, just vomiting like the exorcist. It was horrific. So you do that for a couple hours and then they put you in a room, soak a rag with alcohol, put it under your nose.

And it's like the worst time out of your life. So you're just sitting there so nauseous, so sick, just having to think about what you did. Done to lead you there. So that's one day of the treatment. The next day they hook you up to an IV and it's , a cocktail of truth serum and propanol, which is what Michael Jackson OD'ed on.

. And they basically put you under a meaning. You wake up in a different room. You don't remember this, but you listen to a counseling session with your unconscious. So they also implanted a lot of beliefs, right? Like new beliefs. I don't need alcohol. I choose to be sober. I'm happy, sober. So you're in this altered state of consciousness and they're implanting these affirmations, but they're also doing therapy.

And it's crazy because some of the things that we're doing, Were my biggest traumas were not my biggest traumas, like it wasn't the molestation and it wasn't the, whatever, it was more of these little micro moments when I felt unseen or I didn't belong. And those were the things my unconscious was talking about.

So it's. Fascinating. So you did the alcohol, then you did the unconscious counseling session and you just alternated for 10 days and I walked out of there and I never wanted to drink again, ever. I'm around drinking all the time. People drink in front of me all the time. I date people who drink, like I just never, ever wanted it again.

It was the greatest miracle ever. 

Wow. Wow. Looking back at it. Knowing what you know now, if you had to do it all over again, would you want to go through aversion therapy again? Or do you think you could have achieved that result some other way? 

No, a hundred percent. I was not getting better. And what's really fascinating to me is that program is no longer in existence, which makes me so sad.

And I always like to say, if there's anybody that wants to invest and bring it back, contact me because I know the medical staff, like we could actually reopen this. And I think it's so important that it still be available for people. It was the only hospital of its kind in the United States, and I really wanna make that available.

So for me, I don't believe anything. Have worked. I did recently do a boga, which is African bark site, psychedelic, right? A passage. It has a phenomenal impact on addiction. The way I can best explain it is if you have all these buckets and you got to fill them up with dopamine, doing Ibogaine or a Boga kind of eradicates a lot of the buckets.

So all of a sudden you don't need as much, all that compulsion goes away. And the other thing I noticed was the second voice that's running all the time. Like. Why'd you wear that? And what's she looking at? And it just shuts up. So I think from cravings, from self sabotage, from destructive built in patternings, from those perspectives, iboga, ibogaine should really be looked at as a treatment.

I don't know if it would have worked for me. But I do think. It could have, but no, I'm so grateful for that aversion therapy. It saved my life. And again, I've never had to white knuckle it. I've never had to, Oh God, I wish I could. What an unbelievable miracle. 

So if someone was listening to this and they are going through somewhat of the journey that you went through, where they are in a place in life where they are addicted.

Diversion therapy doesn't exist today. What do you recommend they should do? 

It's just really sad because traditional treatment doesn't work. And I hate to say that, but the Minnesota model of treatment, we're going to have these people come in and we'll do some meetings and one on one counseling.

We'll, keep them for 28 days cause that's all insurance will pay. And then we'll kick them right back out. That's ridiculous. Somebody who's been on meth for 18 years, you're going to put them in a group for 28 days and they're not going to use anymore. And they're going to leave that facility and move right back in with their boyfriend who deals meth.

And then we're going to go, Oh, treatment doesn't work. It's of course it doesn't. When it's done like that, it's a joke. It's absolutely ridiculous. There are. Facilities that are doing a really great job. With technology that we have now with brain imaging and scans and curriculum from like the Meadows, which is, intense trauma work.

There are options out there. They're insanely expensive. I do believe that. Aboga would be something that I would highly encourage somebody to look into it is really important set setting that especially if you have addiction issues that you are there under medical supervision is not something to just try, anywhere.

It's it's a very intense process, but because aversion therapy is not available at this time, I do believe that Ibogaine and Aboga Could potentially have incredible impacts on addiction. 

Wonderful. Yeah, this is all new information for me. I don't know about it. I'm just used to the traditional methods of helping deal with addiction and recovery, but this is great.

So I think this is going to be good for the audience members too. So there you are there, you go through aversion therapy, you come out, you have no desire to drink anymore. Yeah, 

then life got really good, really good. And it's been hard at points too. I don't want to paint this picture of yeah, I stopped drinking and then I didn't have any problems, quite the opposite.

But I was able to. Meet my problems with such a more intact, grounded self. It's just really amazing. So yeah, I get sober. I met my ex husband about a year later. I'm now teaching at the university addiction classes and working with clients and developing drug and alcohol curriculum at the university as well.

My ex husband had this big, amazing martial arts school. So all of a sudden I'm training martial arts, which was just like one of the best feelings ever. As we get older in life, there's not a lot of that Oh my God, moments of awe doing something you've never done. And so that was martial arts for me.

I just, the first time I hit pads I was just, Completely in love. It was amazing. So I got my black belt. Of course, I get married now. I'm teaching martial arts and also teaching at the university and then COVID. So COVID, everybody's got a COVID story. COVID was very interesting for me. I had been teaching online for five semesters.

I was really burnt out. We had a very large martial arts school. We had 700 students when we got shut down. And I just knew this doesn't come back. Like even when the government allows us to reopen, what made us special that there's 50 to 70 kids in here, training is going to be a detriment because half the people are going to be like, cool, let's get back at it.

And half are going to just absolutely avoid it. No way. So we were able to sell the school, sell our house, sell everything and move to Mexico. So that has been just an absolute adventure in and of itself. I love it down here. I was here a year before I decided I wanted to get divorced. So that of course brought, all new challenges and I don't have the experience of it being done.

Like I read this book, conscious uncoupling and all this stuff. None of that. And in my split and I'm not even going to blame him for that. I will own my part, but so now I'm in another country trying to get divorce, trying to figure out the laws in a different language. It's been an absolute shit show.

But the thing that I appreciate so much is when I was still in my addiction. I had a lot of resilience, but I had no grit. So resilience is I'll survive this. And when you're an addict you are constantly under pressure and fatigue and pain and suffering. So you naturally build that resiliency.

But once I got sober, I really developed grit. And grit to me is not just, Oh, I'll survive this. It's bring it, like I actually enjoy the challenges, and it's even with my divorce. Okay. Let's play 3d chess. Let me see how I can MacGyver this, and I have a more playful relationship with these things that before would be like, Oh my God, I can't believe this is happening.

And we just really need to be so diligent of, are we, are we resisting, are we closing off? Are we in our victim? Poor me. Bullshit. Are we like expansive? And this is for me and everything is an opportunity. And. I'm not saying there's not room for momentary, going in feeling it all. I'm not suggesting we bypass anything.

Feel your feelings. But there is a way to grieve with reverence. There is a way to hold yourself with respect and dignity. And also it's more than hope and faith that you will find your way out. It is a true trust and knowing like I got you. And that's what we all need. Like even as little kids, that's what we needed.

We needed to know Okay. I can't take care of myself. You got me. It's as adults, we need to know, okay, this adult self, this highest version of me, I got you no matter what is coming up and that is the gift of sobriety for me more than anything. 

Interesting. Resilience and grit. You had so much happen to you in terms of just sexual assault as a kid.

And then once again, as an adult, we talked about victimhood. There are a lot of people who have gone through similar things. And part of the coping mechanism is to just shut it down. We're in a box, lock it up, throw the key away. How did you deal with it? Does those memories still stay with you? How, what is a better way for those listening to this to develop that resilience, to develop that grit, to not feel that shame, to be truly able to move on instead of just locking it up like an, in an ugly box and Throwing the key away,  

first I want to say that I believe disassociation and compartmentalizing and repression of memories is actually a good thing, which is funny because most people would say it's not. I think it is until it isn't. I believe if your psyche has hidden something, there's a reason for it. And I believe when those memories do start emerging or when you start feeling like, Oh, I wonder if there's something here for me.

And it may not be a concrete memory. It may be, that trapped emotional energy you start to experience, right? You don't even need to necessarily have the words or dialogue or images to go with it. But when those things start arising, that's because they're ready to be released. And so I think it's more about We hear that word surrender.

What the hell does that mean? It means accepting where we're at and trusting that process of, if something is hidden away and repressed, it should be. If something is coming up and asking for attention, it should be. And as far as what to do with it, there's a lot of beautiful ways which we can hold ourselves.

There's somatic therapy, there's EMDR, there's traditional talk therapy, there's psychedelic therapy, which is actually what I did to work with my sexual trauma was psilocybin therapy. Again, set and setting everything with a therapist. And it really is important that we have our trauma witnessed by someone who can hold space.

and be compassionate while we're learning to do that for ourselves. Like when I started digging into my trauma, I didn't know how to hold myself. I didn't know how to be compassionate. I didn't know how to be so grounded and present with myself and there for all of it, that I needed somebody else there to lead the way, to hold my hand, to show me, it's interesting when I think about humans, you think about saber toothed tigers, and wars, and just all this shit we have survived.

We really are so resilient, and people are designed. to thrive and be okay. And so when I think about trauma, I do believe it is a golden opportunity. We don't get a lot of chances to recreate our life or to become this greater version of ourselves. We just don't like if you're 400 pounds and you lose the weight.

That's a magnificent transformation. If you're an addict and you get sober, that's a magnificent transformation. If you were sexually assaulted and it's cut you off from your sexuality and your power and your love and all of it, and you heal that is a magnificent opportunity for transformation. And I think it's just important to remember when we talk about victims and victim mentality, what happened to you is never your fault, but healing it is your responsibility. So when you start to get those nudges, those messages, those calls to healing, have the courage to answer, find someone who can hold space for you.

That means you are ready. 

Very true. Very true. You specialize in something called Six deep breaths for the inner child dialogue to rewire your nervous system. Tell us about that. 

So I love this. It's just such a simple free tool. Anybody can do it at any time. So it's just wonderful. And a lot of the studies came out of Japan, it's just awful.

They have this suicide forest there. People are. Overworked, overwhelmed, and our systems are really designed to be able to handle most experiences, but overwhelm will take out even the best of us. So if you've ever had that experience where your nervous system kind of dysregulates or goes offline, it's really scary.

And it, it feels simultaneously like anxiety and depression hitting it both. Times, and because you're dysregulated, you're trying to heal yourself from this dysregulated place, you're trying to access tools. It's hard. It's hard. So step one is getting us like back online, back in our bodies. So the research out of Japan shows six deep breaths will reset your nervous system, but you really have to take the time.

To breathe in, breathe out

and it's the pause at the end of the exhale when we can drop Further in so do it but do it with intention that I'm coming back in and we're trying to get the Vegas nerve to relax. So six deep breaths and then just ask yourself, like, how present am I? You might see a dial that you could turn up higher.

You may see a number and then see those numbers rise, but you want to check in how Present am I the next thing you want to ask is what age am I right now when we get hijacked when we get? dysregulated when we get triggered or something yanks us out of ourselves so often we go to early childhood because that Experience just triggered an emotional imprint that has now become my reality.

So ask yourself. What age am I? Oh, I'm seven years old. You may remember exactly oh, this is what even

happened

And to me when I felt like this before, emotional memories and patterns, right? So you ask yourself, how old am I right now? And then the next question is, and what do you need? Is it compassion? Is it a hug? Is it love? Is it understanding? Is it, what do you need? What core need is arising? And so we just get curious.

We get really curious. What's going on? Where, when have I felt this before? before we can add in some of Byron Katie's work and say, Okay, this is what I'm feeling. This is the negative belief I have about myself, whatever it is. Who would I be without this story? And then we can start feeling into that future version of us.

And that's really powerful as well. Reticular activation at the base of the neck and spine. We will try to seek out similar experiences we've already had. That's where gratitude lists are so important. That's why Every morning I start my day, three minutes, thinking of things that are so powerful and loving and happy because I want to be attuned to attract more of them.

It happens in the negative way too. That's PTSD, right? Something reminds me of this awful thing and now I'm experiencing as if it's really happening. The opposite is also true. We can do it with positive things where we can re experience them as it's our

And with reticular activation, that's one of the key to manifestations is now I call in more experiences like that. So 60 breaths. What age am I? What do I need? What is this negative story, this negative belief? This pattern that I'm engaging in and who would I be without it? Feel into the future highest version of you.

And remember, she's always got you. He's always got you like that is always available to you, but we have to stop, pause and do the work. 

If we do the work, it slows us down a little bit. Our anxiety is a little bit better, but we're still not completely out of it. Do you recommend something else right after?

Or should we just repeat the exercise again? 

Yeah. We can go a little bit deeper, but there's also, there's a lot of value in moving forward anyway. You know what I mean? Like you may not be a hundred percent, but do it at 60, like start learning to trust yourself to show up even when you don't feel a hundred and then check in later, and maybe you do need to do some.

And then you need to remember also, we're not meant to be happy all the time. We're not meant to be performing at a hundred percent. We're not like, that is a illusion of social media that we're supposed to just always be on and feel great. Your next step may be, Hey, I'm taking a pause. I'm saying no to all this shit.

It's stop being a people pleaser, prioritize yourself. Stop sacrificing yourself for everybody else all the time. Ask yourself, what do I need? Maybe it's a bubble bath. Maybe it's a therapy session. Maybe it's go to the beach. Like whatever your thing is, but pay attention to what do I need?

And self care is, I use the bubble bath example, which is not that great, but. Maybe it's that, but self care is having the courage to be honest with yourself. And how am I doing? And what do I need? When I first got sober, I didn't know what I felt. I had to literally look at one of those charts with the smiley faces and the different faces.

And it said the different emotions. And then I'd be like, Oh, yeah, I think anxiety. I think I'm feeling anxiety. That's how disconnected I was from myself. And when you think about people, today's world, it's just like quick fix in and out. Don't mean hit chasing the next thing. The carrot's always in front of you.

It's just insanity. So how do we pause and just stop and be with what is and then really top in and see, do I need to go perform or do I need to just relax? 

Joe, I want to say this. I talked to a lot of people, a lot of talk to a lot of people about addiction and All these topics that we're talking about, and I will say this, there is a, there is an energy about you, there is a sense of realism about you, that separates you from many people I listen to or speak to, because you just don't know the things you know because you read a book, you know the things you know because you lived a life, and it is very apparent from the way you carry out the conversation, and the way you suggest things being done, because it's not textbook, it's life lived, and therefore it has practical applications, So I really love the insights that you're bringing.

So yeah I'm really feeling very good about this conversation. Let's move on. So now in your current life, you are doing so many things, right? You are helping with different types of lifestyle addictions with people, right? Whether it be work or porn or technology, or, whatever people are struggling with, you're helping men.

Get better at work and business, but also get in touch with the other side of them that braves a relationship. and allows them to have intimacy. Tell us a little bit about this. 

Yeah. When I think about what is the opposite of addiction, it's intimacy. And what is intimacy? Intimacy is into me. See, it is the ability to connect with ourself, with spirit, with the energy that created us with one another.

And that is really what we are designed to do. Yeah, there's so much brilliance in being fiercely independent. It is a important skill to know that you can be alone, right? Because then we hold our standards. If I'm not craving attention or needing somebody else, I'm going to keep my standards high.

I need to love and appreciate what I'm doing. The company I keep when I'm alone first, but let's be real. We would never have survived as a species if it weren't for cooperation and other people Like it is built into our brains to seek people who are similar Tribal mentality. That is literally how we Survived.

There's a reason the worst form of torture is isolation, right? So connection though, can be very superficial. And when you think about your friends, you have those people that you just say, Hey to, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's great. Hey, how are you? But then I want you to think the pendulum swings all the way to the other side.

Who are your front row five, probably your romantic partner, maybe parents, children, whatever, whoever your best friend is, There's got to be people that know us, that know us. And that we know and that we give permission like you be you and I'll be me and put all our cards on the table.

And it's just this beautiful experience. So intimacy coaching to me, I'll give you an example. Cause a lot of people are like, what is that? A lot of people think it's sexual, which is funny to me because you can have intimacy without sex. And you can certainly have sex without intimacy, but the coaching that I do is non sexual.

It's a way to connect at a very deep level. So I'll give you an example. If you have a couple and they're about to engage in conflict, right? What typically happens? She starts saying, This is what's wrong, complaining, nagging, whatever. He tries to fix it, and then gets defensive. And then you're just in this stalemate back and forth.

You're not hearing me. You're not letting me in. And duh. If we eradicate that formula, and we say, Alright, we're gonna sit down in front of one another, and put our hands on our hearts, And we're gonna breathe together and she's gonna start breathing in sync with his breath and let him lead.

And we're gonna really connect and we're gonna eye gaze for three minutes and we're going to get, into ourselves at this deep level. And we're gonna say, I love you and I choose you, and I'm your partner and I always have your back. And we are. teammates that are going to approach this issue from that place of I got you.

You got me. I'm not leaving. We want to make sure everybody's defense mechanisms are tabled, right? And then from that place of, I love you, I want you, this will work. Now let's talk about what we need to talk about. It's a completely different experience because when I get scared of rejection or abandonment, or when I get scared that I'm failing or not doing enough.

Those defense mechanisms come back on again, that word hijacked really applies. And then you're going to act from that dysregulated space. And so if we can come together and connect first and then have real conversations, there is just nothing more beautiful. 

So interesting. I have a question. If you are someone who does have a lot of thoughts about, I'm not good enough.

I'm never going to be good enough. Somebody who is afraid of rejection. But you're not someone who's also able to open up easily. This is a great exercise for two people who are at least at a position in life where they can open up and talk. It's someone who's more used to being within themselves.

And just opening up and talking about how they feel to somebody is a mammoth task on its own. What is a precursor activity or what is something they can do to achieve that? 

That's a beautiful question and the truth is we always start where you're at, meet the client where they're at is the way that I look at it.

So for me, therapy or like I do coaching is a beautiful way to have a safe, confidential space to practice more intimate, honest, vulnerable. relating, right? Like you have a relationship with this therapist or coach where you are practicing, you are getting map time of being vulnerable and being honest.

And that may look like, how was your day and actually talking about it? We may start there or it might be, Oh my God, this horrible thing happened to me when I was five. And that trust and that dialogue and that rapport takes however long it takes to build. But I do believe that it, That's where therapy or coaching is so critical is okay.

There's the rules, the container is set. You're here for me. It's confidential. You have my best interest, and of course this is assuming you find somebody safe enough goal to work with. And I do admit not everybody is, but. I think most people in the helping profession have good ethics, but I believe that's a beautiful place to get your feet wet, and again, you get to decide how much of yourself you reveal. I do an exercise with my clients, titate, trait, pendulate, right? So when we go into an emotion, you don't need to feel all of it. You could feel like 25 percent of it, and we just get good at okay, I'm willing to feel this much titration into it.

We can do that with vulnerability as well. Like I'm going to let this part of myself be seen, not this. There's an intentionality. And we want to be safe enough that we don't dysregulate, right? So we pay attention to our cues and we go slow. The other thing is the pendulate. We want to move that trapped energy.

So if I'm working with somebody and they tense up and they freeze, or they go into resistance, we got to find it. Where is it in the body? And then we allow it to move when that energy or that emotion starts moving. Now, all of a sudden it's not becoming a block. It's not becoming an imprint. It's not becoming something that.

something else is going to trigger. And now we go right back into that moment in time. So there's so many ways, but I do think it's important just to honor, honor where you're at and know there's no right or wrong place to start. There's nobody's more ahead or more behind. It doesn't matter. This is your journey and where you are is exactly where you're at.

Lovely. Lovely. If someone is listening and obviously we know the role of a coach or a therapist in this is paramount. But not everybody has access to a great coach or a therapist or sometimes even the money to be able to afford it, right? But if someone is listening to this and they know they're just the type of person who has difficulty opening up, who has difficulty trusting people, right?

And therefore they suffer a lot in their own head. What are some simple things they can do on their own to slowly make progress on their own without even letting anybody know what's happening? Cause a lot of them want to hide and Want to do things on their own without telling others, 

Knowledge is great.

And I think knowledge can be a first step and thank God with technology. There are so many free resources out there. It's insane. Start Googling Byron Katie, the work, look at Tony Robbins stuff. I love like Wayne Dyer. Going back to when I started my journey, Eckhart Tolle, there's a lot of people out there with a lot of great information.

Start following accounts on social media of people who are speaking to what you are dealing. Knowledge doesn't change behavior, but it's a great place to start. And then just get curious of how am I afraid to be seen? If I'm holding myself back, if I'm afraid to be vulnerable, ask yourself, what are you afraid people will see in you?

Just get real curious. We need to bring light into these shadows. This is another great question to ask. And this was actually, this was a Tony Robbins thing. So who's, whose love did you crave the most? Which parent? And then who did you have to become in order to receive that love? When we start looking at our past and our upbringing, that's where we learn a lot about our attachment styles.

We can see where we've collected. A lot of evidence that we're not worthy. And again, that's when we can bring in Byron Katie's work. Okay. Is this true? No. Like who would I be without my story? So it sounds so cliche and textbook, but I do believe the intention behind doing this work is more powerful than the work itself.

If you can find an opening to say, I deserve love. I deserve to live this life fully and completely. I deserve. To have the experience of falling in love and having my heart broken and all that comes with being vulnerable and transparent, that intention is more powerful than anything you will read.

Absolutely. Absolutely. We can't, we don't choose the things that happen to us. We don't choose where we are born. We don't choose the experiences growing up. We don't choose the good things or the bad things that come upon our life. But I think your story, your message, your teachings, your way of life is testament to the idea that when we invest in ourselves and when we want to be a better version of ourselves, regardless of the trauma that we have gone through, we have the ability to live a full life.

Purposeful, joyful life. So thank you so much for joining me in this conversation. It's been an amazing hour. Time has flown by and I just hope that everybody listening to this understands the value that you're bringing and connects with you to be able to learn from you more. I certainly am looking forward to talking to you again.

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I would absolutely, it'd be an honor to be on again. 

Thank you.